An Interesting Conversation
Tim Strange: I don't generally care what people believe and I definitely know that they will believe what they want no matter what I say. My point is why is it okay for them to question my views but the minute I ask a question about their beliefs suddenly I am the one who crossed a line? Why am I suddenly asking for it? What's wrong with the free Exchange of ideas?
Myles Boch: maybe you're polar opposites. they don't want to accept the possibility of no god, and you don't want to accept the possibility there might be? then the name calling starts, then the war continues
Tim Strange: I can accept the possibility if you can show me some proof. War is a strong word. I don't wanna hurt anyone.
Tristan Belk: If there were proof, it would be fact
Tim Strange: Exactly, science operates on proof. Ergo science is fact. Religion operates on faith but still manages to cause so much strife and hurt throughout the whole world. It doesn't feel like it's worth the effort.
ST Exas: I really REALLY like Myles Boch's comment. I think there is hubris in either polar extreme. The evidence that you are using to disprove intelligent design as a whole isn't really there. You're disproving a particular theory of intelligent design. Outside of the realm of specific theories, science does very little to prove whether the physical world is a product of intelligent design. If there was no intelligent design, the world would work just as it does as a product of chaos. If there was intelligent design, the world would work just as it does as a product of its design. Thus, determining what causes our minds to work the way it does (electrical impulses) doesn't really speak to whether there is an intelligent design behind the way our minds work. It is not provable in either direction. Additionally, conclusively stating that there can be no intelligent design equally leaves you open to unresolvable questions such as why do things work the way they do. They just do seems to be as big of a cop out as because God said so.
Tim Strange: Sam it feels like you are trying really hard to play the devil's advocate. Science has already done so much to disprove the theories and suppositions of all the major religions across the world that arguing the one unanswerable question seems moot. The world is billions of years old, not thousands. The earth is not the center of the universe, or even the solar system for that matter. And the fact that you're conjecturing that the opinions of some religious nut job are as valid as an accomplished scientist like say Carl Sagan because he can't scientifically disprove the existence of a higher being seems absurd to me. Using that method you could effectively argue that we are actually trapped in the Matrix and existence is nothing but a dream.
Myles Boch: Anyone who follows anything blindly without questioning is getting the message wrong. Like the ones who would want to kill others or say they're going to hell for not believing in Jesus (or insert any other peace loving martyr). The message is that we can all become like that through self sacrifice (not being afraid of what people think of us, telling the truth, etc) Eternal Hell is failing to learn from past mistakes and never living life to the fullest, or living another's dream while disregarding your own. Those seeking salvation from sin are fools. We must free ourselves from the ignorance from which sin is a consequence. You could even say that the rise of homosexuality is an evolutionary thing to cut down on overpopulation. Humans are quite out of whack with nature, exactly like Agent Smith said. Not knocking gay people, it's totally cool with me, of course. People who disregard the facts and evidence of evolution are fools, of course, but there is proof that there are those who have the power of mind over matter, simply on a small scale. Look up Uri Gellar, Stanislawa Tomczyk and the Spiritualist movement from the 1800s-early 1900s
ST Exas: Agreed, Tim. But it's not nonsense. The order is not explainable. Even by disproving all of the world's religions and suppositions, we've only scratched the surface. There are possibilities of Truth that we can't even fathom. It is one thing to say that you disbelieve organized religion, but conclusively stating that there could be no reason for the madness goes against even science. Quantum physics is open to the idea that anything is possible. This means that a possibility of intelligent design is not 0% even if it is only a .0000001 chance.... I'd also like to separate myself from the traditional idea of religion. I'm not arguing for an established religion. I think most of established religion is human characteristics imposed onto the surrounding world because our egos make it so that we need to believe that the meaning behind the world is not only intelligible to us but based on the will of someone like us. This is almost certainly true. However, I get that establishing that Paradise Lost is an improper authority for religion doesn't disprove the idea of God in nature (as the Aztecs and some Western Asian communities believed) or that God is not necessarily a physical being..... My WHOLE point is that in a subject where one can never obtain certainty, we should be hesitant to be so close minded; whichever side we may favor.
ST Exas: This is almost certainly not true.*
Greg Bataillon: please elaborate your assertion that quantum physics allows all things to be possible
Tim Strange: I'm not close minded. Remember, I was raised as a catholic so my first lessons on the why's and ways of the world were taught to me through that lense. But as I grew up and learned to think for myself and actually ask the critical questions, the things that weren't so easy to whitewash with the answer "that's god's will" , I realized that religion doesn't have the answers. I gave that way of thinking a chance and it just doesn't fit. There's nothing in the universe that can't be explained with reason. Just because we don't have all the answers right now doesn't mean we can't eventually figure it out.
Tim Strange: The close minded ones are those who refuse to even entertain the possibility that there is no god. Even for a moment.
Myles Boch: to Greg Bataillon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_superposition
Quantum superposition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
Greg Bataillon: thanks for googling quantum superposition for me, bro. I know what it is. The supposition that particles in certain systems can exist in multiple states at once does not equate to all things being possible.
Myles Boch: that a particle can exist in INFINITE states (which yes, that mean all things are possible) before witnessed by an observer
Myles Boch: expand your mind, bro
Tim Strange: I read the article too and was wondering the same thing. Can you explain that leap in logic? How can you apply that concept to something as abstract as a deity?
Myles Boch: every choice made results in a different universe, a different reality, but the one we live in is the most likely of all of our choices interacting with each other. let's say Jesus found this out and through practice and meditation, was able to control these quantum states on a fundamental level and could indeed think things possible and create "miracles" which to the unenlightened (read:stupid), he had to say he was the "son of god" when, really, all people can have the Christ consciousness and control the universe through sheer willpower. wants become reality. we are all god, one and the same, not one ultimate being watching us, but we are God
Greg Bataillon: if I had to expand my mind enough to accept all that, it'd fall right out of my skull
Tim Strange: That's pretty funny Myles but doesn't seem more likely that people simply embellished a story that was shared in an oral tradition for decades before it was actually written down?
Tim Strange: Also that no one has those abilities. Anywhere. Ever.
Myles Boch: sounds like the same argument you're using is the same that religious nuts are using "I don't understand that! you're crazy!" the buddhas did it, monks do it now. dismissing something without doing the research is just hypocritical. the quest for knowledge is never ending. True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing. Socrates
Tim Strange: I don't know man Jesus is said to have done some crazy shit. Being able to raise your body temperature through meditation is a far cry from walking on water or resurrection. Sure you coukd say "what I know is that I know nothing" and not be far wrong. The universe is a huge place and our total understanding of it now is just scratching the surface...but we do know some things. Telling me that I'm being hypocritical because I don't buy it wholesale feels like a cop out.
Tim Strange: What about akum's razor?
Greg Bataillon: what I'm dismissing are your assertions that fly in the face of all established (read: demonstrated, independently replicated, tirelessly tested) science. You just keep on asserting things on a subjective basis and declaring that anyone who doesn't take it seriously is closed-minded. That's disingenuous. You need to provide some evidence before you start claiming things as "true".
Myles Boch: I don't mean to be condesending. I've always been agnostic. But learning enough about how the universe works on a grand scale, then studying psychology, then seeing how things work on a micro scale, how plants and animals are so similar, studying different religions, seeing all the similarities between all of these things makes too much sense when you keep on learning, it all finally clicks together, and it's too impossible to ignore
Myles Boch: And scientists have demonstrated quantum entanglement in the laboratory. that throws the speed of light out of the window. they're just trying to improve it over greater distances. we're not there yet, but it's coming
Tim Strange: Lol, I love these conversations because it makes it impossible not to seem like a jerk. At the very heart of these discussions we are questioning each others deeply held viewpoints. What I am getting at is I am glad I have friends who can have these talks without resulting to petty name-calling or getting angry or defensive.
Myles Boch: http://www.powerfulintentions.org/forum/topics/undeniable-unescapeable?commentId=1335877%3AComment%3A2726033
Myles Boch: I'm having a grand old time. I love you, Tim Strange
Tim Strange: I love you too Myles Boch
Myles Boch: maybe you're polar opposites. they don't want to accept the possibility of no god, and you don't want to accept the possibility there might be? then the name calling starts, then the war continues
Tim Strange: I can accept the possibility if you can show me some proof. War is a strong word. I don't wanna hurt anyone.
Tristan Belk: If there were proof, it would be fact
Tim Strange: Exactly, science operates on proof. Ergo science is fact. Religion operates on faith but still manages to cause so much strife and hurt throughout the whole world. It doesn't feel like it's worth the effort.
ST Exas: I really REALLY like Myles Boch's comment. I think there is hubris in either polar extreme. The evidence that you are using to disprove intelligent design as a whole isn't really there. You're disproving a particular theory of intelligent design. Outside of the realm of specific theories, science does very little to prove whether the physical world is a product of intelligent design. If there was no intelligent design, the world would work just as it does as a product of chaos. If there was intelligent design, the world would work just as it does as a product of its design. Thus, determining what causes our minds to work the way it does (electrical impulses) doesn't really speak to whether there is an intelligent design behind the way our minds work. It is not provable in either direction. Additionally, conclusively stating that there can be no intelligent design equally leaves you open to unresolvable questions such as why do things work the way they do. They just do seems to be as big of a cop out as because God said so.
Tim Strange: Sam it feels like you are trying really hard to play the devil's advocate. Science has already done so much to disprove the theories and suppositions of all the major religions across the world that arguing the one unanswerable question seems moot. The world is billions of years old, not thousands. The earth is not the center of the universe, or even the solar system for that matter. And the fact that you're conjecturing that the opinions of some religious nut job are as valid as an accomplished scientist like say Carl Sagan because he can't scientifically disprove the existence of a higher being seems absurd to me. Using that method you could effectively argue that we are actually trapped in the Matrix and existence is nothing but a dream.
Myles Boch: Anyone who follows anything blindly without questioning is getting the message wrong. Like the ones who would want to kill others or say they're going to hell for not believing in Jesus (or insert any other peace loving martyr). The message is that we can all become like that through self sacrifice (not being afraid of what people think of us, telling the truth, etc) Eternal Hell is failing to learn from past mistakes and never living life to the fullest, or living another's dream while disregarding your own. Those seeking salvation from sin are fools. We must free ourselves from the ignorance from which sin is a consequence. You could even say that the rise of homosexuality is an evolutionary thing to cut down on overpopulation. Humans are quite out of whack with nature, exactly like Agent Smith said. Not knocking gay people, it's totally cool with me, of course. People who disregard the facts and evidence of evolution are fools, of course, but there is proof that there are those who have the power of mind over matter, simply on a small scale. Look up Uri Gellar, Stanislawa Tomczyk and the Spiritualist movement from the 1800s-early 1900s
ST Exas: Agreed, Tim. But it's not nonsense. The order is not explainable. Even by disproving all of the world's religions and suppositions, we've only scratched the surface. There are possibilities of Truth that we can't even fathom. It is one thing to say that you disbelieve organized religion, but conclusively stating that there could be no reason for the madness goes against even science. Quantum physics is open to the idea that anything is possible. This means that a possibility of intelligent design is not 0% even if it is only a .0000001 chance.... I'd also like to separate myself from the traditional idea of religion. I'm not arguing for an established religion. I think most of established religion is human characteristics imposed onto the surrounding world because our egos make it so that we need to believe that the meaning behind the world is not only intelligible to us but based on the will of someone like us. This is almost certainly true. However, I get that establishing that Paradise Lost is an improper authority for religion doesn't disprove the idea of God in nature (as the Aztecs and some Western Asian communities believed) or that God is not necessarily a physical being..... My WHOLE point is that in a subject where one can never obtain certainty, we should be hesitant to be so close minded; whichever side we may favor.
ST Exas: This is almost certainly not true.*
Greg Bataillon: please elaborate your assertion that quantum physics allows all things to be possible
Tim Strange: I'm not close minded. Remember, I was raised as a catholic so my first lessons on the why's and ways of the world were taught to me through that lense. But as I grew up and learned to think for myself and actually ask the critical questions, the things that weren't so easy to whitewash with the answer "that's god's will" , I realized that religion doesn't have the answers. I gave that way of thinking a chance and it just doesn't fit. There's nothing in the universe that can't be explained with reason. Just because we don't have all the answers right now doesn't mean we can't eventually figure it out.
Tim Strange: The close minded ones are those who refuse to even entertain the possibility that there is no god. Even for a moment.
Myles Boch: to Greg Bataillon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_superposition
Quantum superposition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
Greg Bataillon: thanks for googling quantum superposition for me, bro. I know what it is. The supposition that particles in certain systems can exist in multiple states at once does not equate to all things being possible.
Myles Boch: that a particle can exist in INFINITE states (which yes, that mean all things are possible) before witnessed by an observer
Myles Boch: expand your mind, bro
Tim Strange: I read the article too and was wondering the same thing. Can you explain that leap in logic? How can you apply that concept to something as abstract as a deity?
Myles Boch: every choice made results in a different universe, a different reality, but the one we live in is the most likely of all of our choices interacting with each other. let's say Jesus found this out and through practice and meditation, was able to control these quantum states on a fundamental level and could indeed think things possible and create "miracles" which to the unenlightened (read:stupid), he had to say he was the "son of god" when, really, all people can have the Christ consciousness and control the universe through sheer willpower. wants become reality. we are all god, one and the same, not one ultimate being watching us, but we are God
Greg Bataillon: if I had to expand my mind enough to accept all that, it'd fall right out of my skull
Tim Strange: That's pretty funny Myles but doesn't seem more likely that people simply embellished a story that was shared in an oral tradition for decades before it was actually written down?
Tim Strange: Also that no one has those abilities. Anywhere. Ever.
Myles Boch: sounds like the same argument you're using is the same that religious nuts are using "I don't understand that! you're crazy!" the buddhas did it, monks do it now. dismissing something without doing the research is just hypocritical. the quest for knowledge is never ending. True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing. Socrates
Tim Strange: I don't know man Jesus is said to have done some crazy shit. Being able to raise your body temperature through meditation is a far cry from walking on water or resurrection. Sure you coukd say "what I know is that I know nothing" and not be far wrong. The universe is a huge place and our total understanding of it now is just scratching the surface...but we do know some things. Telling me that I'm being hypocritical because I don't buy it wholesale feels like a cop out.
Tim Strange: What about akum's razor?
Greg Bataillon: what I'm dismissing are your assertions that fly in the face of all established (read: demonstrated, independently replicated, tirelessly tested) science. You just keep on asserting things on a subjective basis and declaring that anyone who doesn't take it seriously is closed-minded. That's disingenuous. You need to provide some evidence before you start claiming things as "true".
Myles Boch: I don't mean to be condesending. I've always been agnostic. But learning enough about how the universe works on a grand scale, then studying psychology, then seeing how things work on a micro scale, how plants and animals are so similar, studying different religions, seeing all the similarities between all of these things makes too much sense when you keep on learning, it all finally clicks together, and it's too impossible to ignore
Myles Boch: And scientists have demonstrated quantum entanglement in the laboratory. that throws the speed of light out of the window. they're just trying to improve it over greater distances. we're not there yet, but it's coming
Tim Strange: Lol, I love these conversations because it makes it impossible not to seem like a jerk. At the very heart of these discussions we are questioning each others deeply held viewpoints. What I am getting at is I am glad I have friends who can have these talks without resulting to petty name-calling or getting angry or defensive.
Myles Boch: http://www.powerfulintentions.org/forum/topics/undeniable-unescapeable?commentId=1335877%3AComment%3A2726033
Myles Boch: I'm having a grand old time. I love you, Tim Strange
Tim Strange: I love you too Myles Boch
Comments
Post a Comment